Dave Schlueter, respected author, professor of law and former JAG weighs-in on NDAA reforms and expected impacts

WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.679 --> 00:00:07.360 Welcome to the military justice today podcast, with your host Robert Capa Villa and 2 00:00:07.480 --> 00:00:12.439 Mickey Williams, covering the full range of military law topics from all branches of 3 00:00:12.480 --> 00:00:16.760 the Armed Forces. Today's episode is made possible in part by the law firm 4 00:00:16.839 --> 00:00:21.039 of Capa Villa and Williams. And now let's welcome the host of the show, 5 00:00:21.640 --> 00:00:27.239 Rob and Mickey. Hey, everybody, welcome to another episode of Military 6 00:00:27.320 --> 00:00:32.119 Justice today the podcast. This is Matt Stroziak, stepping in here momentarily to 7 00:00:32.320 --> 00:00:38.479 introduce Robert Capa Villa and Mickey Williams. And then on today's episode we have 8 00:00:38.520 --> 00:00:42.759 a very special guest, Dave schleader. So, Dave, are you with 9 00:00:42.840 --> 00:00:47.320 us? Can you hear us? Okay, I can find perfect well, 10 00:00:47.320 --> 00:00:49.560 thanks for being on the show today. We've got a lot to cover, 11 00:00:49.719 --> 00:00:54.759 some extraordinary topics. First, I'd like to introduce uh, Dave's background a 12 00:00:54.799 --> 00:00:58.079 little bit. I'm certain I won't do it justice, but um, but, 13 00:00:58.200 --> 00:01:03.640 Dave, you've had an extraordinary legal career, uh, spanning forty plus 14 00:01:03.759 --> 00:01:07.920 years, for sure. You you have degrees from three excellent schools. Your 15 00:01:07.000 --> 00:01:11.560 B a from Texas A and M You'R J D from Baylor University. School 16 00:01:11.560 --> 00:01:15.879 of law and your L L M from the University of Virginia. You spent 17 00:01:17.000 --> 00:01:22.599 nine years as an Army Jag, many more than that in the reserves. 18 00:01:23.159 --> 00:01:26.680 I found it very interesting that you had two stints with working with the Supreme 19 00:01:26.719 --> 00:01:33.120 Court of the United States, appointed by Chief Justice Burger and then chief justice 20 00:01:33.280 --> 00:01:37.680 rehnquest I'd love to hear some more about that as we get into today's show. 21 00:01:38.200 --> 00:01:42.920 You've authored more than a dozen books, many of those kind of the 22 00:01:42.000 --> 00:01:49.840 cornerstone and foundation for Jag attorneys on military practice, procedure, evidence and forms. 23 00:01:51.640 --> 00:01:56.359 And you coming up on forty years in academia, where you've earned too 24 00:01:56.359 --> 00:02:00.280 many honors for me to really cover appropriately here. Uh. Much of your 25 00:02:00.319 --> 00:02:04.280 time, I think, has been at St Mary's University School of law in 26 00:02:04.359 --> 00:02:09.319 San Antonio. I know you've been named the Outstanding Law Faculty member at least 27 00:02:09.319 --> 00:02:15.520 two years there and uh, and you're a professor emeritus here as of May 28 00:02:15.560 --> 00:02:20.719 of two so, as I had mentioned earlier on, just a real extraordinary 29 00:02:20.840 --> 00:02:23.280 legal career. I think all of us that have gone to law school recognized 30 00:02:23.360 --> 00:02:28.919 that. You know to think that they could accomplish all that you have in 31 00:02:29.159 --> 00:02:32.680 uh, in your time as a lawyer is really something extraordinary. So I 32 00:02:32.759 --> 00:02:37.280 may have, uh, I may not have covered everything, but obviously we're 33 00:02:37.319 --> 00:02:39.800 thrilled to have you on the show today. We've got some really kind of 34 00:02:39.840 --> 00:02:44.479 cutting edge topics that I know Robin Mickey are interested in talking with you about. 35 00:02:45.080 --> 00:02:47.759 So thank you again, sir, for all you've done in the legal 36 00:02:47.800 --> 00:02:51.759 community. I thank you. My family thanks to you for your service to 37 00:02:51.800 --> 00:02:54.520 our country and UH, and again we're thrilled to have you on the show 38 00:02:54.520 --> 00:02:59.479 today. Well, thank you very, very kind woods. Yeah, it's 39 00:02:59.479 --> 00:03:02.159 been almost fifty years. I came on active duty in January of seventy two, 40 00:03:02.240 --> 00:03:07.360 so it's actually over fifty years. So I'm an old guy. That's 41 00:03:07.479 --> 00:03:09.680 right. Well, day, before we get into uh, kind of our 42 00:03:09.840 --> 00:03:14.080 our funny topic for the day, then our subsidip topics, I want to 43 00:03:14.120 --> 00:03:16.479 personally thank you, and I know Mickey feels the same way. I gotta 44 00:03:16.520 --> 00:03:21.000 be honest with you, sir, I learned most of what I know from 45 00:03:21.039 --> 00:03:24.400 military justice, Um, reading the foundation's book, Reading Your Book on the 46 00:03:24.479 --> 00:03:29.479 rules of evidence. And here's a cool little story. When I had made 47 00:03:29.479 --> 00:03:32.240 the decision that I wanted to follow my heart and become a military defense attorney 48 00:03:32.240 --> 00:03:37.319 on the outside world that I didn't want to go be a special victims prosecutor. 49 00:03:37.639 --> 00:03:39.680 I didn't think I was ready for the transition and I was living in 50 00:03:39.719 --> 00:03:46.120 a little one bedroom cabin at the time outside of Columbus, Georgia, and 51 00:03:46.159 --> 00:03:50.479 I would get up every morning at five o'clock in the morning and I would 52 00:03:50.520 --> 00:03:55.120 read a chapter from your evidence book, Um and I carry it with me 53 00:03:55.560 --> 00:03:59.879 all the time. Same with the foundations book and quite frankly, sir, 54 00:04:00.120 --> 00:04:04.759 you have kind of indirectly taught me more about military justice than anybody else out 55 00:04:04.800 --> 00:04:08.439 there and I want to thank you. Thank you, thank you for it, 56 00:04:08.560 --> 00:04:12.400 because everywhere we go we see your books and it's just outstanding work products. 57 00:04:13.759 --> 00:04:15.839 Well, thank you very much. That's a great encouragement for the next 58 00:04:15.879 --> 00:04:19.639 time I'm working on one of those books late at night, I'll remember your 59 00:04:19.959 --> 00:04:26.000 kind words and will keep me going. Absolutely a Labor of love for sure. 60 00:04:26.720 --> 00:04:30.920 Well, our our pretty our pre topic discussion today, which is something 61 00:04:31.240 --> 00:04:34.720 I created. I hope it goes over well. I've been super excited to 62 00:04:34.800 --> 00:04:40.399 kind of put this out there. But our pre topic discussion today are your 63 00:04:40.560 --> 00:04:47.639 top five favorite military movies, and so we're all gonna give our top five. 64 00:04:48.439 --> 00:04:57.199 This usually digresses into attacks on people's list and sometimes their personalities as well. 65 00:04:57.680 --> 00:05:00.079 So there's no there's no telling what direction at my go we'll just stay 66 00:05:00.120 --> 00:05:03.720 away from college football for this. Yeah, anytime we talk about college, 67 00:05:04.199 --> 00:05:08.439 College football or movies, it's uh, it usually takes a turn for the 68 00:05:08.480 --> 00:05:12.000 worst. But I'm going to read the list. We'll talk about each one 69 00:05:12.040 --> 00:05:14.319 a little bit. We're not gonna spend too much time on it, maybe 70 00:05:14.360 --> 00:05:18.240 five, six minutes, but I'm gonna Start with Robert Capa Villa's list. 71 00:05:18.360 --> 00:05:20.920 Are we reading our own list? Mat, I'm going to read the list. 72 00:05:21.199 --> 00:05:24.959 I want to read my own and then you might have to defend it. 73 00:05:25.120 --> 00:05:29.079 No, no, I want to read my own list. Um. 74 00:05:29.160 --> 00:05:34.199 So my number one is Gettysburgh, the movie from the nineties with Jeff Bridges. 75 00:05:34.959 --> 00:05:39.959 Um, excuse me, Jeff Daniels, not Jeff Bridges, Jeff Daniels. 76 00:05:40.040 --> 00:05:44.560 Easy to confuse those. Yes, number two is glory. Number three 77 00:05:44.839 --> 00:05:48.680 is Lincoln. As as the folks can tell, I have uh, certainly 78 00:05:48.720 --> 00:05:53.040 I leaned towards civil war movies. I'm a huge fan of I guess you 79 00:05:53.040 --> 00:05:56.560 can call me a buff Um. Number four is not a civil war movie. 80 00:05:56.680 --> 00:06:01.399 Number four is Tropic Thunder Uh A. Number five is what I consider 81 00:06:01.480 --> 00:06:06.040 the best, the best movie on World War Two, with just the absolute 82 00:06:06.079 --> 00:06:09.680 best acting, and that's a thin red line. Yeah, that's a good 83 00:06:09.680 --> 00:06:14.120 one. I think that might be the only one that was on Mickey's list, 84 00:06:14.360 --> 00:06:18.759 and so you'd tropic. Tropic Thunder though that is. Is that a 85 00:06:18.839 --> 00:06:21.560 serious movie? I was unfamiliar with that movie. I had to look it 86 00:06:21.639 --> 00:06:28.000 up online. It's the most serious war documentary. No, it's it's the 87 00:06:28.879 --> 00:06:31.279 it's the exact opposite. That's what I thought serious. It was meant to 88 00:06:31.360 --> 00:06:34.800 mock the other movies. Um, but it is really, really, quite 89 00:06:34.800 --> 00:06:39.600 funny. Is that the one where they have the previews before the Yes, 90 00:06:39.680 --> 00:06:44.680 the Devil's den and the Devil's playground. Have you've ever seen that, Matt? 91 00:06:45.079 --> 00:06:46.920 I don't believe I have. No, I don't think I've seen most 92 00:06:46.920 --> 00:06:49.720 of these on ROB's list, to be honest with you, I'm embarrassed to 93 00:06:49.720 --> 00:06:53.120 say. But yeah, well, you ever go back, if you ever 94 00:06:53.160 --> 00:06:59.600 go back and watch Gettysburg and watching Um, Jeff Daniels is presentation of that 95 00:06:59.680 --> 00:07:02.959 fame order given by Chamberlain. You know, draw bayonets or fixed bayonets. 96 00:07:03.319 --> 00:07:06.839 It still gives you chills, but anyway, alright. So next we're gonna 97 00:07:06.959 --> 00:07:11.759 WE'RE ACTUALLY gonna jump to Dave next. And UH, Mickey, I'm gonna 98 00:07:11.759 --> 00:07:14.600 put you on the back burner for just a moment here. But Dave, 99 00:07:14.639 --> 00:07:19.600 why don't we hear your top five favorite military movies, please, once you 100 00:07:19.639 --> 00:07:23.439 go ahead and read the list. And I've forgotten what I gave you. 101 00:07:23.480 --> 00:07:27.680 And that's right. Well, yeah, and we changed it up because I 102 00:07:27.720 --> 00:07:29.920 was supposed to give the list and then, uh, and then we, 103 00:07:30.120 --> 00:07:33.040 the boss, changed that. So number one you have top gun, maverick 104 00:07:33.759 --> 00:07:40.399 Um, so brand new movie. Film number two you have glory, and 105 00:07:40.480 --> 00:07:44.319 that was what rob had. Is His number two, and that number three 106 00:07:44.480 --> 00:07:49.079 was the hunt for Red October. Film number four is a few good men, 107 00:07:49.560 --> 00:07:56.279 of course, and number five for Dave, is Rambo first blood, 108 00:07:56.360 --> 00:08:00.240 right, the first one. Yes, that's a good one. So to 109 00:08:00.439 --> 00:08:03.199 Tom Cruise movies, Rambo first blood was number six on my list. I 110 00:08:03.199 --> 00:08:07.040 I that movie. People Forget. That's a serious movie. That's just not 111 00:08:07.120 --> 00:08:11.399 an action movie. That was a movie about the times we're in in Vietnam, 112 00:08:11.560 --> 00:08:13.600 quite frankly, so, Dave, and that was like King County, 113 00:08:13.600 --> 00:08:16.680 Washington, right, isn't that where you that's right up in the Pacific northwest. 114 00:08:18.000 --> 00:08:20.759 So, Dave, there's been a lot of discussion about top gun two 115 00:08:20.959 --> 00:08:24.360 or top gun maverick. So tell us a little bit about why that's your 116 00:08:24.439 --> 00:08:30.199 number one choice. Uh, it went to the top of the list because 117 00:08:30.240 --> 00:08:35.080 we saw it with our family on father's Day. We all went, even 118 00:08:35.120 --> 00:08:41.279 our young granddaughters, and it literally was it shakes you in your seat because 119 00:08:41.320 --> 00:08:48.279 when they put the afterburners on on the aircraft carrier, the theater shakes, 120 00:08:48.399 --> 00:08:52.320 and so it was a well done movie. Uh, you know, somebody 121 00:08:52.360 --> 00:08:56.440 said that the first top gun was more of a like a locker room competition 122 00:08:56.960 --> 00:09:01.120 and athletic and you know where they're him to do the best they can, 123 00:09:01.879 --> 00:09:03.879 and this one I thought was a little more serious. There's actually some good 124 00:09:05.159 --> 00:09:07.279 flying sequences and that really, I think, made it real because it good 125 00:09:07.320 --> 00:09:13.000 cameras in the cockpit with the actors who were in the rear seat. So 126 00:09:13.039 --> 00:09:18.120 when they're making their tight terms with the G forces, Um, you actually 127 00:09:18.120 --> 00:09:20.759 see cruises space and the other actors. It was a well done movie. 128 00:09:22.000 --> 00:09:24.840 Yeah, they said it was quite challenging on those actors because they did shoot 129 00:09:24.840 --> 00:09:28.519 a lot of that, you know, in real world situations, right. 130 00:09:30.960 --> 00:09:35.480 Yes, yes, and so it's very realistic and I did some reading about 131 00:09:35.480 --> 00:09:37.879 it. It was a challenge because they had to look for just the right 132 00:09:37.960 --> 00:09:41.360 lighting conditions, the cloud cover Um, and then they did hours and hours 133 00:09:41.360 --> 00:09:45.759 and hours of recording and then they picked out what looked like the best. 134 00:09:45.840 --> 00:09:48.080 So, yeah, I was really impressed. I didn't really expect a whole 135 00:09:48.120 --> 00:09:52.159 lot from the movie. I'd heard about it. In fact, our son 136 00:09:52.240 --> 00:09:56.240 got our tickets. He and his wife had seen it the previous week and 137 00:09:56.279 --> 00:10:00.200 we're so excited about it they wanted to see it again. So they got 138 00:10:00.240 --> 00:10:03.360 reservations for about cannabis in the theater and it was quite an experience. That's 139 00:10:03.360 --> 00:10:07.360 awesome. That's awesome and a good movie with the family. I actually saw 140 00:10:07.360 --> 00:10:09.120 it with my father and my father in law when they were visiting. So 141 00:10:09.159 --> 00:10:13.519 it was it was the same thing, very nice family outing and I know 142 00:10:13.600 --> 00:10:16.320 that movie. I Know Mickey loved that Movie Too. I don't see it 143 00:10:16.360 --> 00:10:22.279 here on his list but um, he was ranting and raving about it a 144 00:10:22.279 --> 00:10:26.879 few weeks ago when he saw it. And speaking of Mickey Williams, I'm 145 00:10:26.879 --> 00:10:30.639 gonna do you next. I'M gonna go last, of course, but you 146 00:10:30.679 --> 00:10:31.879 want me to read your list, Mick. Yeah, go ahead, all 147 00:10:31.960 --> 00:10:37.480 right. So Mickey's list is thin red line, which was on Mr Capavilla's 148 00:10:37.519 --> 00:10:43.120 list, I believe. Number two, you have apocalypse. Now I think 149 00:10:43.159 --> 00:10:48.559 that's on my dad's favorite list. Number three is starship trooper. I love 150 00:10:48.639 --> 00:10:52.320 that film. Um, I gotta follow up question on that one. Number 151 00:10:52.360 --> 00:10:58.399 four is Predator. I hope we don't have Mr Capavilla doing his schwarzenegger voice 152 00:10:58.440 --> 00:11:01.320 today. But and then on your number five is top gun, but the 153 00:11:01.320 --> 00:11:05.360 original one, right man, the original. Yeah, alright. So tell 154 00:11:05.399 --> 00:11:07.399 us about starship troopers. Isn't that some kind of spoof too? Or No? 155 00:11:09.080 --> 00:11:13.480 Uh No, it's based off of a novel by Robert Heinland. He 156 00:11:13.559 --> 00:11:16.759 was a sci Fi writer but I think he served the military. Uh, 157 00:11:16.799 --> 00:11:20.279 if you watched, if you read the book, there's a lot of military 158 00:11:20.320 --> 00:11:24.200 stuff in it, but also the film. I just liked how it seemed 159 00:11:24.240 --> 00:11:31.759 to me like a nineties Um kind of like advertisement for the military to get 160 00:11:31.759 --> 00:11:33.600 these young recruits to join the military to go fight these bugs and out of 161 00:11:33.600 --> 00:11:37.720 space, and there was a lot. There was to me it seemed the 162 00:11:37.799 --> 00:11:43.320 culture there seems a lot like the culture in the infantry um at the time. 163 00:11:43.919 --> 00:11:48.159 And Uh, it is. It is kind of I wouldn't say it's 164 00:11:48.159 --> 00:11:52.279 a spoof. It's not a comedy. It kind of is, but uh, 165 00:11:52.320 --> 00:11:54.279 I mean it's it's a wild show man that there's like there's some scenes 166 00:11:54.320 --> 00:11:58.080 in there, like one of the guys that, I think his name is 167 00:11:58.120 --> 00:12:01.720 like Colonel Rat Jack or whatever. He's played by Michael Ironside, and he's 168 00:12:01.720 --> 00:12:05.799 this hardcore guy and at one scene he gets like eaten in half by a 169 00:12:05.840 --> 00:12:11.559 bug and and I think it's like Corporal Rico or whoever that the main guy 170 00:12:11.679 --> 00:12:15.799 is. He's like he's like Rico, you know what to do, you 171 00:12:15.879 --> 00:12:20.360 know, and he racks around and shoots him with the chest and mercy kills 172 00:12:20.399 --> 00:12:26.600 him. All right. Well, a great addition to the main list. 173 00:12:26.639 --> 00:12:28.679 And, by the way, I think what we're gonna do is is we'll 174 00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:33.960 put this episode up on Youtube and then we'll we'll take comments from everybody on 175 00:12:35.000 --> 00:12:37.879 their favorites and where they disagree with us, and then maybe even do a 176 00:12:37.879 --> 00:12:39.440 follow up show, since it's kind of fun. All Right, I'll give 177 00:12:39.519 --> 00:12:43.679 my list of top five and then we'll get going on the substance of today's 178 00:12:43.720 --> 00:12:48.720 podcast. My number one is the peacemaker with George Clooney. Number two is 179 00:12:48.759 --> 00:12:54.679 no way out with Kevin Costner. Number three, which is probably a little 180 00:12:54.679 --> 00:12:58.960 bit of a stretch for a military movie, but the Great Santini with Robert 181 00:13:00.159 --> 00:13:03.679 devol I love that scene where where he's walking down the gym up at the 182 00:13:03.720 --> 00:13:05.679 top of the gym he's like, you put him on the floor, you 183 00:13:05.679 --> 00:13:11.720 put him on the floor the home. Um. Number four is aliens, 184 00:13:11.559 --> 00:13:16.039 great, great, great movie, and asked Marines in that movie. And 185 00:13:16.080 --> 00:13:18.919 then uh, my number five is thirteen days, which is about the human 186 00:13:18.960 --> 00:13:26.159 missile crisis. Somebody should put her in charge, man. Yeah, George, 187 00:13:28.279 --> 00:13:31.080 I love that movie and Uh, I think at the end we might 188 00:13:31.080 --> 00:13:33.879 do favorite characters from movies, and my favorite is uh is from aliens. 189 00:13:33.879 --> 00:13:37.159 So Um. Well, that was great. That was fun and, like 190 00:13:37.200 --> 00:13:41.759 I said, we'll put this episode up on Youtube. We'll get some some 191 00:13:41.840 --> 00:13:45.320 feedback from our from our audience, as to where we went wrong on that 192 00:13:45.360 --> 00:13:48.679 list. But but thanks for putting that together, guys. I'm now going 193 00:13:48.720 --> 00:13:52.279 to turn it over to Mr Capa Villa here and he's gonna get US started 194 00:13:52.399 --> 00:13:56.639 on today's substantive topics. So thank you. Yeah, no, that was 195 00:13:56.679 --> 00:14:00.919 fun. So moving on to more serious topics now. Um, we're gonna 196 00:14:00.960 --> 00:14:05.279 be talking about the two thousand twenty two n d A. A. Mickey's 197 00:14:05.279 --> 00:14:09.039 gonna talk about where that bill currently sits, Um, and then I'm going 198 00:14:09.080 --> 00:14:13.240 to talk a little bit about, Um, what changes we are going to 199 00:14:13.320 --> 00:14:16.440 see, and then we're gonna kind of turn the floor over to our special 200 00:14:16.480 --> 00:14:20.120 guests and do a little q and a and and soak up his wisdom. 201 00:14:20.200 --> 00:14:22.720 So make if you want to get going. We can start there. Yeah, 202 00:14:22.840 --> 00:14:28.440 be happy to very quick so on December the Senate pass the National Defense 203 00:14:28.480 --> 00:14:33.320 Authorization Act for fiscally you two, and then it was signed into law by 204 00:14:33.320 --> 00:14:37.840 the president on December. So it's now law. Now what does that mean? 205 00:14:39.039 --> 00:14:41.559 I think Robinson explained kind of what those changes are and the impacts that 206 00:14:41.639 --> 00:14:45.279 we might see. So, rob go ahead and tell us that's where the 207 00:14:45.360 --> 00:14:46.960 law sits. What what does that actually mean? It's a done deal. 208 00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:52.840 These changes are happening. So, Um, the main purpose of Ur there's 209 00:14:52.840 --> 00:14:54.799 a lot of changes. That happened with the two thousand twenty two ND A. 210 00:14:54.960 --> 00:14:58.960 Obviously the one that's gotten the most publicity, uh, is the creation 211 00:15:00.039 --> 00:15:05.240 and of this novel Independent Office of the Special Trial Council. Um. That 212 00:15:05.279 --> 00:15:11.519 will go into effect for each service except the coastguard, where in the coastguard 213 00:15:11.559 --> 00:15:16.039 they will still be reporting directly to the civilian secretary of that service instead of 214 00:15:16.080 --> 00:15:20.919 the Judge Advocate General or chief of staff. Um, the judge advocate general 215 00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:26.960 will select these special trial councils, known as the STCs, who are obviously 216 00:15:26.000 --> 00:15:31.960 going to be judge advocates, and they're gonna be selected based on qualifications that 217 00:15:31.000 --> 00:15:35.759 we're used to seeing with panel members and court martials. They're gonna be selected 218 00:15:35.759 --> 00:15:41.639 based on their education, their training, their experience, uh, their temperament. 219 00:15:41.240 --> 00:15:45.600 Uh. And this senior trial council will serve in the grade of Oh 220 00:15:45.679 --> 00:15:48.840 seven, so they're going to be brigadier generals and the force. Well, 221 00:15:48.960 --> 00:15:52.240 real quick. Who selects them though? Is that the Jag? I believe 222 00:15:52.240 --> 00:15:56.919 it's the T JAG is going to be selecting them. Correct. Now, 223 00:15:58.480 --> 00:16:03.639 there's going to be a lot of authority passed on to this STC, notably 224 00:16:03.720 --> 00:16:11.600 the ST STC will have exclusive authority over the covered offenses, which we'll talk 225 00:16:11.639 --> 00:16:17.399 about in a minute and also related offenses, as well as any other offense 226 00:16:17.519 --> 00:16:21.600 is alleged to have been committed by the individual being charged. He was the 227 00:16:21.639 --> 00:16:26.639 accused. So, for example, the STC is going to have prosecutor prosecutorial 228 00:16:26.679 --> 00:16:33.000 authority or discretion over soldiers accused of sexual assault and then any other offenses. 229 00:16:33.080 --> 00:16:37.279 If there's a one twenty offense or related offense, any other offense that he's 230 00:16:37.360 --> 00:16:41.399 charged with or that she's charged with, they will have discretion over those offenses 231 00:16:41.440 --> 00:16:45.600 too. So you're gonna see folks that are charged with, say, a 232 00:16:45.639 --> 00:16:52.039 sex assault and the charge sheet may also consider may also contain conduct unbecoming and 233 00:16:52.200 --> 00:16:56.879 the STC will actually have discretion over those related or additional charges. I should 234 00:16:56.879 --> 00:17:03.879 say now the A X, that the new the N D a a covers 235 00:17:03.400 --> 00:17:11.519 these specific charges right. These covered offenses. Wrongful broadcast or distribution of intimate 236 00:17:11.599 --> 00:17:15.000 visual images. That's article one seventeen, Alpha murder under article one een, 237 00:17:15.519 --> 00:17:21.720 manslaughter under Article One nineteen, rape and sex assault, including of children, 238 00:17:21.720 --> 00:17:26.480 in certain other types of sexual misconduct under articles one, one twenty. Bravo 239 00:17:26.240 --> 00:17:33.000 Charlie, kidnapping under article on. This one I thought was interesting. Domestic 240 00:17:33.079 --> 00:17:38.400 violence under the relatively new article on eight Bravo, stalking under Article One thirty, 241 00:17:38.519 --> 00:17:45.920 retaliation under Article One two and producing, processing, receiving, viewing and 242 00:17:45.960 --> 00:17:52.119 distributing child pornography under article one four, as well as conspiring to or attempting 243 00:17:52.279 --> 00:17:56.079 or soliciting any of the above. And of course those are articles eight, 244 00:17:56.720 --> 00:18:00.640 one, eight two. So the bottom line here is is that, traditionally 245 00:18:00.680 --> 00:18:06.359 speaking, what we've seen up to this point in military justices, the command 246 00:18:06.440 --> 00:18:11.759 retains essentially what amounts to prosecutorial discretion, and this is a fundamental and significant 247 00:18:11.880 --> 00:18:15.960 change where this senior trial council position, this judge, Advocate Oh seven, 248 00:18:17.039 --> 00:18:22.079 is going to have discretion and prosecutorial authority over all of those allegations mentioned, 249 00:18:22.119 --> 00:18:26.160 all those charges mentioned, and then anything else that would be on the charge 250 00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:30.039 sheet if one of these charges is on the charge sheet. That is an 251 00:18:30.079 --> 00:18:36.279 awful lot of power being shifted from traditionally the chain of command, the G 252 00:18:36.440 --> 00:18:40.240 C M C A, to now the senior trial council. There are some 253 00:18:40.319 --> 00:18:44.279 other changes we're going to dive into Um with Dave, but that's kind of 254 00:18:44.319 --> 00:18:48.000 the Gravaman of the rule. So, Dave, let's jump into our Q 255 00:18:48.200 --> 00:18:52.839 and a section Um make and I are going to rotate questions for you, 256 00:18:52.279 --> 00:18:56.039 uh, and we cannot wait to hear your answers and get educated on some 257 00:18:56.119 --> 00:18:59.720 of these topics. So make with that being said, go ahead and start 258 00:18:59.759 --> 00:19:03.920 off. Brother. Okay, Um. So, Dave, so we got 259 00:19:03.960 --> 00:19:07.039 these these reforms now and I guess the major question is is why is this 260 00:19:07.119 --> 00:19:14.400 happening? WHO's pushing it and why do they feel that it's necessary? That's 261 00:19:14.400 --> 00:19:18.640 a great question, Um, and looking at this for the last number of 262 00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:22.440 years, it seems to me that there are probably three different um interest groups 263 00:19:22.480 --> 00:19:29.039 that are pushing it. There are individuals who have always felt that military justice 264 00:19:29.119 --> 00:19:33.000 needed reforming, regardless of what the issue happens to be. Um, and 265 00:19:33.079 --> 00:19:37.359 that number isn't necessarily large, but you know, kind of their goal in 266 00:19:37.440 --> 00:19:41.480 life is to change military justice, I suppose you could say to civilianize it. 267 00:19:41.559 --> 00:19:48.119 Um. You also have a few people in Congress that we're very unhappy 268 00:19:48.200 --> 00:19:52.000 with the military's response to sexual assault offenses. You know, they've been pushing 269 00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:57.480 that and leading that is probably Kirsten, senator, Kirsten Jillibrand, who held 270 00:19:57.559 --> 00:20:02.559 hearings and this and testimony of victims over the years, and I think some 271 00:20:02.680 --> 00:20:10.640 of these changes dealing with sexual assaults go back all the way to Um and 272 00:20:10.680 --> 00:20:14.279 the third group seems to be those that believe that we really ought to model 273 00:20:14.319 --> 00:20:18.319 our military justice system after our allies in terms of Germany, Great Britain, 274 00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:23.839 Israel, and that's the ways a little bit puzzlingly to me because, uh, 275 00:20:23.960 --> 00:20:27.279 they often make the comparison the well of the systems work well in those 276 00:20:27.319 --> 00:20:30.680 countries. Why won't they work in the United States military justice system? And 277 00:20:30.720 --> 00:20:33.519 there are a lot of good reasons for that that I don't think we need 278 00:20:33.559 --> 00:20:37.000 to get into the day, but one them is just that the geographical dispersement, 279 00:20:37.039 --> 00:20:42.279 the forces, the overall culture and attitude about injustice. So there may 280 00:20:42.279 --> 00:20:45.519 be others who are players in this, but I think that's primarily what was 281 00:20:45.559 --> 00:20:48.400 driving it and they all came together. It was like, I don't want 282 00:20:48.400 --> 00:20:52.160 to say a perfect storm, but every everything came together and they were able 283 00:20:52.200 --> 00:20:59.720 to get these changes through in let me ask you this. Let me ask 284 00:20:59.720 --> 00:21:03.480 you this, Dave. So we have this creation. I've I've been kind 285 00:21:03.480 --> 00:21:08.039 of joking jokingly referring it to as the UM, the all powerful prosecutor, 286 00:21:08.400 --> 00:21:12.160 the superjag right. That's what I've been calling the superjag Um, but it's 287 00:21:12.160 --> 00:21:18.079 the Special Trial Council I'm interested to hear. What role do you see this 288 00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:25.200 o seven officer having and, I guess, more importantly, what problems do 289 00:21:25.319 --> 00:21:27.519 you see with the creation, or potential problems, I guess, with the 290 00:21:27.559 --> 00:21:33.880 creation of this new position? I think a lot's going to depend on how 291 00:21:33.960 --> 00:21:40.039 much authority or how much they delegate to the o seven Um. If you 292 00:21:40.079 --> 00:21:42.880 think about it, they're probably going to be physically located in the Washington DC 293 00:21:42.960 --> 00:21:47.880 area and I've heard through the grapevine that at least in the army, they 294 00:21:47.920 --> 00:21:52.839 expect that this o seven will be making most of the prosecutorial decisions, and 295 00:21:52.920 --> 00:21:56.839 that causes me some concern because you would never think of that. And, 296 00:21:56.960 --> 00:22:00.000 for example, a state court system here in Texas, there were in they 297 00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:06.599 are county San Antonio, Texas. Our District Attorney has a soul authority decide 298 00:22:06.640 --> 00:22:11.160 what charges to bring against individuals. But if the legislature and Texas decided, 299 00:22:11.200 --> 00:22:15.359 well, we're going to focus that in Austin up the road, uh, 300 00:22:15.480 --> 00:22:18.799 you know, the people would be in arms because you know who knows best 301 00:22:18.920 --> 00:22:22.319 as to what the prosecution ought to be in a particular days. So I 302 00:22:22.359 --> 00:22:26.680 think one potential problem if they if they put a lot of that final decision 303 00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:30.720 making authority at the upper echelon, they'll end up with what I've referred to 304 00:22:30.759 --> 00:22:36.960 as kind of an ivory tower decision. I think a better system is to 305 00:22:37.079 --> 00:22:41.240 use the o seven as kind of the guiding uh the individual. And then 306 00:22:41.240 --> 00:22:45.599 you have your regional prosecutors and you have your local prosecutors, and the local 307 00:22:45.640 --> 00:22:48.559 prosecutors really ought to have a lot of safe they're the ones interviewing the witnesses. 308 00:22:49.200 --> 00:22:52.359 In sexual assault, for example, it's often he said, she said. 309 00:22:53.039 --> 00:22:56.519 So you need to have eyes on the individual. You literally need to 310 00:22:56.559 --> 00:23:00.880 sit across the table and look at and determine what's going to happen. If 311 00:23:00.920 --> 00:23:04.279 you go to trial. You know they have good eye contact and if you 312 00:23:04.680 --> 00:23:10.559 push that decision up to Washington D C, you might have somebody giving a 313 00:23:10.680 --> 00:23:15.400 narrative about what their impression was of the victim or of the accused. Um 314 00:23:15.440 --> 00:23:18.960 I think that's going to be a potential problem. There are a couple of 315 00:23:18.960 --> 00:23:21.720 others that I can go on if you want to respond to that one first 316 00:23:21.759 --> 00:23:26.440 before I go on. Yeah, so I think that's a fascinating take and 317 00:23:26.599 --> 00:23:30.839 one that I agree with. Um and we know that behind the scenes the 318 00:23:30.880 --> 00:23:36.920 primary push for these changes has been the military's response, or the lack there 319 00:23:37.079 --> 00:23:41.960 of, specifically to sexual assault and sexual assault related changes. I'm interested to 320 00:23:41.960 --> 00:23:45.640 get your take on this because I anticipate what we're gonna see is the first 321 00:23:45.720 --> 00:23:51.119 three to five years that this new oh sevens in position, I imagine we're 322 00:23:51.119 --> 00:23:56.559 gonna see even more of an uptick in prosecutions with sexual assaults because the military, 323 00:23:56.640 --> 00:24:00.759 those folks are gonna want to report back to Congress say hey, see 324 00:24:00.759 --> 00:24:04.279 you, look, we're doing more than we were doing before. Do you 325 00:24:04.359 --> 00:24:07.720 do you agree with that, Dave? Do you think we're gonna see that 326 00:24:07.839 --> 00:24:12.319 to justify the new position? I think that's exactly what's going to happen and 327 00:24:12.319 --> 00:24:15.519 I and this ties in with one of my other concerns, and that is 328 00:24:15.559 --> 00:24:21.680 the possibility of unlawful command influence at the highest level. This O seven is 329 00:24:21.680 --> 00:24:25.279 going to be directly accountable to the secretary of the service. The secretary as 330 00:24:25.359 --> 00:24:29.680 a political appointee. There's no longer a military chaining at command. The O 331 00:24:29.799 --> 00:24:33.559 seven doesn't report to an O A, and so I could see instances where 332 00:24:33.680 --> 00:24:37.599 if, for example, the conviction rate was dropping or not enough cases were 333 00:24:37.640 --> 00:24:42.000 being brought to trial, that somebody in Congress was makes place a phone call 334 00:24:42.119 --> 00:24:45.480 to the secretary of the army, for example, and say hey, what's 335 00:24:45.480 --> 00:24:48.119 going on over there? Can't you get your act together? And so I 336 00:24:48.119 --> 00:24:52.240 could then see the secretary of the army picking up the phone, calling the 337 00:24:52.279 --> 00:24:56.079 Oh seven and say tell me what's going on. And we we all know, 338 00:24:56.160 --> 00:25:00.079 if we've had any experience with the military, that phone call, as 339 00:25:00.119 --> 00:25:03.359 innocent as it might being intent, could be viewed as unlawful command influence. 340 00:25:03.359 --> 00:25:10.000 We know from recent cases that it's possible for uh those at the flag or 341 00:25:10.039 --> 00:25:14.519 the general rank to be UH involved in a non lawful commanding influence even in 342 00:25:14.559 --> 00:25:17.960 the Jag ranks. So I think you're right. I think, in an 343 00:25:17.960 --> 00:25:21.359 attempt to respond to what Congress has said, I think a lot of cases 344 00:25:21.359 --> 00:25:25.039 are going to go to trial. I think you're also going to potentially see 345 00:25:25.880 --> 00:25:30.119 not all of those cases resulting in the guilty verdict, which in itself could 346 00:25:30.119 --> 00:25:33.240 get a negative response of Congress. It's as though, in listening to some 347 00:25:33.319 --> 00:25:38.920 of the debate, it's persecute every case where there's been an allegation, for 348 00:25:38.960 --> 00:25:44.000 example, of sexual assault, when I think they're members of Congress, being 349 00:25:44.079 --> 00:25:47.880 perhaps not familiar with the process or the rule of law, would expect that 350 00:25:47.920 --> 00:25:49.640 if you'd bother to go to trial, you're gonna end up with a conviction 351 00:25:51.000 --> 00:25:55.400 which will be upheld on appeal. So I think they're going to be mixed 352 00:25:55.400 --> 00:26:00.799 responses and it's gonna be very interesting to see whether the upkicking prosecution results in 353 00:26:00.839 --> 00:26:06.000 an upject convictions as well. Yeah, I guess that remains to be seen. 354 00:26:06.640 --> 00:26:10.880 It does seem as as though that the Super Jack will essentially be operating 355 00:26:10.880 --> 00:26:12.720 on a mandate, so it will be kind of like his mission to go 356 00:26:12.759 --> 00:26:17.119 ahead and he'll he or she will think, well, my job is the 357 00:26:17.200 --> 00:26:21.319 prosecute cases. So, UM, yeah, I agree with you. That 358 00:26:21.400 --> 00:26:26.720 does that that I think your predictions are probably correct. But moving on now, 359 00:26:26.279 --> 00:26:32.680 Dave, what about this idea about getting rid of the sentencing from jury 360 00:26:32.680 --> 00:26:36.720 members or panel members? Um, now it looks like it's just gonna be 361 00:26:36.920 --> 00:26:38.440 judge alone. Is that right? Like the judge is going to be one 362 00:26:38.680 --> 00:26:44.720 who actually sentences the accused if if the trial ends up in a guilty verdict. 363 00:26:45.000 --> 00:26:51.000 Yes, I have mixed feelings about that. I am I like the 364 00:26:51.079 --> 00:26:56.640 idea that when members did the sentencing they were representing the command and it strikes 365 00:26:56.680 --> 00:27:00.680 me that that's very, very important. I know that when I was at 366 00:27:00.720 --> 00:27:03.400 the Jag school we brought in the battalion of Brigade Commanders for what we call 367 00:27:03.519 --> 00:27:08.119 the Solo course, senior officers, legal irritation course, and there was a 368 00:27:08.119 --> 00:27:11.920 two or three hour seminars that they had to go through. It was called 369 00:27:11.920 --> 00:27:15.759 sentencing and it was very interesting to conduct those seminars because you would give them 370 00:27:15.759 --> 00:27:19.200 a fact situation and you would say the accused has been convicted to this, 371 00:27:21.200 --> 00:27:26.039 and those commanders had a wide variety of views and it reflected the idea, 372 00:27:26.119 --> 00:27:29.720 and this is part of the jury system in the Suvian community, is that 373 00:27:29.799 --> 00:27:36.160 the jury is in a very good position to assess the level of criminality involved 374 00:27:36.880 --> 00:27:40.319 h the accused, of the fin its background and to make those decisions. 375 00:27:41.200 --> 00:27:45.319 Now there's been a push over the years to civilian, IIED sentencing, and 376 00:27:45.559 --> 00:27:51.680 this last act, finally uh took that in consideration and the argument was that 377 00:27:51.720 --> 00:27:56.119 we need to model ourselves after federal system. So in federal criminal courts the 378 00:27:56.200 --> 00:28:00.960 judges the sentencing. That leads to a root question, if you're going to 379 00:28:02.039 --> 00:28:06.519 raise it about sentencing parameters. But I think that there's something that's being lost 380 00:28:06.599 --> 00:28:12.279 by not giving the accussed the choice as under as to who was going to 381 00:28:12.359 --> 00:28:17.200 do I didn't really, you know, when this came out. This one 382 00:28:17.319 --> 00:28:19.359 surprised me. Maybe in your circle's Day, if you had kind of gotten 383 00:28:19.359 --> 00:28:22.359 a hint that this was coming. Um, I did not, and I 384 00:28:22.440 --> 00:28:26.519 was a little taken back by this. The only justification that I can see, 385 00:28:26.599 --> 00:28:30.720 besides trying to make us more like the civilians, is that they want 386 00:28:30.720 --> 00:28:34.039 to be able to get those panel members back to doing their jobs, which 387 00:28:34.039 --> 00:28:37.640 are important. Um. But but I agree with you. I think that 388 00:28:37.759 --> 00:28:42.640 takes something away from the process. We've always had the option of going with 389 00:28:42.720 --> 00:28:47.160 panel or judge, and that's a decision that we help our clients make based 390 00:28:47.200 --> 00:28:51.480 on kind of the tone, the tenor of how trial goes, Um the 391 00:28:52.039 --> 00:28:56.400 findings made by the panel. But moving you know, talking specifically about these 392 00:28:56.400 --> 00:29:00.079 parameters, we don't know what they're gonna be. We know they're gonna be 393 00:29:00.160 --> 00:29:04.279 at least modeled after the Federal Code and here, and I kind of want 394 00:29:04.359 --> 00:29:10.200 your thoughts on this day, because here are my concerns in all aspects of 395 00:29:10.519 --> 00:29:15.200 military justice, at least what we've seen in recent cases, like the dial 396 00:29:15.359 --> 00:29:19.319 decision, that argues there should not be unanimous verdict because we're so very different. 397 00:29:19.319 --> 00:29:22.440 The military system is so very, very different, uh, than the 398 00:29:22.480 --> 00:29:27.400 civilian system. But yet this seems to directly contradict that. And if there's 399 00:29:27.440 --> 00:29:32.160 ever a place where we need to be different, I feel like it's in 400 00:29:32.240 --> 00:29:37.039 sentencing because we represent people. I mean we Mickey and I. Mickey's a 401 00:29:37.079 --> 00:29:41.599 prior Army Ranger himself. We represented Army Rangers, we've represented Navy Seals, 402 00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:48.160 we've represented folks that have done incredible things overseas in combat, and I feel 403 00:29:48.160 --> 00:29:52.680 like these parameters are not going to properly take that into account. I mean, 404 00:29:52.720 --> 00:29:56.200 that's how we are different. It does give leeway to the military judges, 405 00:29:56.279 --> 00:30:00.599 right, they can basically put forward specific findings of fact and and and 406 00:30:00.799 --> 00:30:07.160 justify the reasoning why they vary from those parameters. But that's really my concern 407 00:30:07.279 --> 00:30:08.960 here. What are your thoughts about that? Am I? Am I talking 408 00:30:08.960 --> 00:30:14.680 craziness or do you think I'm on with that? No, you're you're spought 409 00:30:14.759 --> 00:30:18.519 on I have some concerns about the sentencing parameters. Of First of all, 410 00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:25.759 it's a very complex system and, as I've said at various presentations to audiences, 411 00:30:25.839 --> 00:30:29.640 I think there's a danger that an attempt to reform military justice and model 412 00:30:29.680 --> 00:30:36.359 it after the civilian codes Um we may have the unintended consequence of making things 413 00:30:36.400 --> 00:30:38.279 more complicated than they really need to be, and I think that may be 414 00:30:40.240 --> 00:30:44.880 a prime example of a potential problem in these sentencing parameters. If you do 415 00:30:45.000 --> 00:30:48.400 Internet research on sentencing guidelines into the federal system, just type in problems with 416 00:30:48.519 --> 00:30:56.039 federal sentencing guidelines. You'll see that there's been a tremendous amount of scholarship on 417 00:30:56.160 --> 00:31:02.519 the problems with federal sentencing guidelines, that they were intended to provide some uniformity 418 00:31:02.559 --> 00:31:06.880 across the board. Uh, if anybody's familiar with federal sentencing guidelines, have 419 00:31:07.000 --> 00:31:08.839 got a pretty complicated chart. You read down the left side, you read 420 00:31:08.880 --> 00:31:14.720 across the top and then you put it into the figure out what it's going 421 00:31:14.759 --> 00:31:18.519 to be. But in reality what's been happening is that their departures downward and 422 00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:23.920 upward and there are a very high number of cases that are appealed on sentencing 423 00:31:23.960 --> 00:31:27.799 and I think that's going to happen in the military, despite the best efforts 424 00:31:27.799 --> 00:31:32.519 of the drafters of these parameters, they're going to be judges up there who 425 00:31:32.519 --> 00:31:34.559 are going to look at the numbers and say those numbers don't fit the facts 426 00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:38.160 of this case. They'll put something on the record or in their judgment that 427 00:31:38.279 --> 00:31:44.039 explain why they departed downward or upward, and then the defense council will appeal 428 00:31:44.079 --> 00:31:47.960 the sentence to the courts of criminal appeals, which they have the right to 429 00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:52.640 do, and I think that it's going to create a lot of unnecessary complexity. 430 00:31:52.880 --> 00:31:55.480 Um, a CO author, and I have looked at this. We 431 00:31:55.559 --> 00:32:00.759 gave a presentation in Washington to the calf conference Um this rank and she covered 432 00:32:00.799 --> 00:32:06.160 the sentencing parameters and when you break it down and take a look at how 433 00:32:06.200 --> 00:32:08.920 they're going to be developed, they're going to be just five voting members, 434 00:32:09.039 --> 00:32:13.880 is, the chief judges of the services. There's gonna be a tremendous amount 435 00:32:13.880 --> 00:32:16.839 of pressure on them and if you take a look at the sentencing guidelines, 436 00:32:16.880 --> 00:32:23.240 commission, the body that's responsible for reviewing the federal sentencing guidelines, uh, 437 00:32:23.279 --> 00:32:29.119 it's not unusual for them to make frequent changes based on feedback they're getting from 438 00:32:29.119 --> 00:32:34.160 the field, and so that just creates an unnecessary level of complexity. Because 439 00:32:34.200 --> 00:32:37.920 if you're practicing in the field, whether you're a special trial compsil or not, 440 00:32:37.680 --> 00:32:40.880 and you're trying to make an argument to the trial judge and the trial 441 00:32:40.960 --> 00:32:45.680 judge does away a minute, I just saw an email coming out of headquarters 442 00:32:45.720 --> 00:32:49.160 if they changed the sentence in parameters for this particular fence, or to go 443 00:32:49.200 --> 00:32:52.640 back to your room and come up with a new argument. The final point 444 00:32:52.720 --> 00:32:59.119 here is that in the fenderal sentencing probation officers carry the league and do research 445 00:32:59.480 --> 00:33:04.480 interviewing every day and they come up with the report that they present to the 446 00:33:04.599 --> 00:33:08.240 federal judge who'll be doing the sentencing, and then the parties are given an 447 00:33:08.240 --> 00:33:14.000 opportunity to respond to those recommendations. And that thought of that that you actually 448 00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:17.759 go to the sentencing hearing and the judge then announces what the sentence is going 449 00:33:17.799 --> 00:33:23.319 to be based on that probation officers. So right now there's no such person 450 00:33:23.400 --> 00:33:27.440 in the military. It's going to fall on the shoulders of the trial judge, 451 00:33:28.319 --> 00:33:32.160 UH and the excellent military quickly. So I think that's A. That's 452 00:33:34.079 --> 00:33:37.880 a problem that I see. Mackey, you just handle the sentencing case in 453 00:33:37.920 --> 00:33:40.839 federal court with a veteran. What are your thoughts? Did you agree with 454 00:33:40.920 --> 00:33:45.519 Dave, because I I had overlooked the fact that when I was a Sausa, 455 00:33:45.119 --> 00:33:49.440 they have sentencing reports, they have folks who work this on a daily 456 00:33:49.440 --> 00:33:52.799 basis to provide the judge and accurate picture of everything. What are you what 457 00:33:52.839 --> 00:33:57.319 are your thoughts and all that? Well, I I agree. They typically 458 00:33:57.319 --> 00:34:00.319 what happens is probation gets involved and they do and invest a ation. That 459 00:34:00.359 --> 00:34:04.640 takes about a month and then at at the conclusion they submit a report to 460 00:34:04.720 --> 00:34:07.279 the judge, the judge takes a look at it and then you also have 461 00:34:07.359 --> 00:34:12.960 the hearing that follows that, just as David has described. Um that ended 462 00:34:13.000 --> 00:34:15.760 up in it. We didn't actually end up doing that in that case. 463 00:34:15.800 --> 00:34:17.559 We ended up have getting a really good deal, which was kind of my 464 00:34:17.719 --> 00:34:23.119 question about about this is, will that impact well, these sensing parameters and 465 00:34:23.119 --> 00:34:25.840 if people don't know what said, what we mean by sentencing parameters, we're 466 00:34:25.880 --> 00:34:30.440 talking about like mandatory minimums and kind of guidelines what the judge is going to 467 00:34:30.519 --> 00:34:36.039 be looking at in order to determine an appropriate sentence for the accused who has 468 00:34:36.079 --> 00:34:39.800 just been convicted. Is that going to impact deals like are are? Are 469 00:34:39.840 --> 00:34:44.719 we gonna be bound to these parameters? Do you think? Or has that 470 00:34:44.760 --> 00:34:49.800 even been a discussion? Um, I guess. My my concern is is 471 00:34:50.400 --> 00:34:53.119 it's gonna be really tough to get a deal in a case if the guy 472 00:34:53.239 --> 00:34:59.639 if the mandatory minimum or the sentence sentencing parameters it is like minimum five years, 473 00:34:59.679 --> 00:35:01.559 five to ten, five or fifteen years, well you might as well 474 00:35:01.599 --> 00:35:06.679 go to trial, Um, because you might you might win the case right. 475 00:35:07.360 --> 00:35:10.960 So what do you think, Dave, about these sentencing parameters impacting guilty 476 00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:16.400 plead deals or anything like that? That's a that's a good point. That's 477 00:35:16.400 --> 00:35:19.599 not a point that I've given a lot of thought to, but I think 478 00:35:19.639 --> 00:35:22.519 you're right on Um. I think there's also going to be a temptation as 479 00:35:22.559 --> 00:35:25.760 we kind of worked through this, and I think most of these changes they 480 00:35:25.800 --> 00:35:32.800 don't go into effect until December, so they're focusing on who are scrambling to 481 00:35:32.800 --> 00:35:37.679 put all this together. So we probably won't see any real changes playing out 482 00:35:37.679 --> 00:35:43.159 in the real world until probably the spring of four but I do think it's 483 00:35:43.159 --> 00:35:45.000 going to have an impact and I think there's gonna be potential danger. You 484 00:35:45.039 --> 00:35:50.920 know that federal judges and military judges are barred from taking part in any kind 485 00:35:50.960 --> 00:35:54.079 of plea bargaining, but I could see the discussions going on behind the scenes 486 00:35:54.119 --> 00:35:58.159 between the criminal defense lawyer and a special trial council, for example, in 487 00:35:58.239 --> 00:36:01.199 one of the covered defenses. We're both looking at these parameters and scratching their 488 00:36:01.199 --> 00:36:04.840 heads and say we have no idea where the judge is going to come out 489 00:36:04.840 --> 00:36:07.480 on this Um. They might have a gut feeling, and so both sides 490 00:36:07.519 --> 00:36:13.119 are trying to negotiate what they consider to be a fair agreement without really knowing 491 00:36:13.559 --> 00:36:15.320 what the judge thinks. And I think there may be a danger for the 492 00:36:15.400 --> 00:36:20.159 judgice to give a link, link in a nod to say well, if 493 00:36:20.159 --> 00:36:23.639 I were the sentence I'd thought probably followed in this range. Or the judge 494 00:36:23.719 --> 00:36:28.760 might make a rather innocuous statement about, well, I intend to follow the 495 00:36:28.760 --> 00:36:30.920 parameters to the t. You know, if the range is this and this, 496 00:36:31.840 --> 00:36:36.119 I'm not going to depart because I think the intent was to fall within 497 00:36:36.119 --> 00:36:38.239 the range. Or you might have a military judge that says I don't like 498 00:36:38.360 --> 00:36:44.239 the parameters. This is all over happy hour cocktails. Right. I'm not 499 00:36:44.280 --> 00:36:46.920 really happy with the I'm going to do the right thing. Well, the 500 00:36:47.000 --> 00:36:52.039 right thing might be a departure upward or downwards. So it's gonna there's gonna 501 00:36:52.079 --> 00:36:53.719 be a breaking period, but I think that's an exting one point. I 502 00:36:53.760 --> 00:36:58.320 think it is going to have an adverse impact to some extent, and I 503 00:36:58.360 --> 00:37:02.360 think you mentioned it in your earlier man sit the exclusive authority for doing pre 504 00:37:02.480 --> 00:37:07.920 trial agreements or a plea bargaining. We used to call them pre trial agreements 505 00:37:07.960 --> 00:37:12.960 plea bargaining. It's gonna fall exclusively with the special trial council. Right, 506 00:37:14.000 --> 00:37:15.880 and I'm gonna tell you, guys, what I'm terrified about, and I 507 00:37:15.920 --> 00:37:22.159 know it's coming. I know this is gonna Happen. The minimum mandatory sentence 508 00:37:22.280 --> 00:37:29.079 for sex assault is gonna be something north of eight years, regardless of the 509 00:37:29.079 --> 00:37:34.079 surrounding circumstances. I'm almost certain that's gonna come down. And the reality is 510 00:37:34.079 --> 00:37:38.400 is a lot of the clients we represent, our college age folks who mom 511 00:37:38.440 --> 00:37:42.880 and dad are helping them pay the bill, who joined the army or the 512 00:37:42.960 --> 00:37:45.800 military to better their lives, because they're not. They don't come from a 513 00:37:45.800 --> 00:37:49.519 whole lot. They go out, they have some drinks with some friends or 514 00:37:49.559 --> 00:37:53.559 drinks with the girl and one thing leads to another and they're found guilty, 515 00:37:53.599 --> 00:37:58.320 and maybe rightfully so, maybe not. And a lot of times what we're 516 00:37:58.320 --> 00:38:01.559 seeing is the judges taking in consideration things like this. What, what truly 517 00:38:01.639 --> 00:38:06.719 was the intent? What role did alcohol take to play here? How egregious 518 00:38:06.800 --> 00:38:08.639 is this? And and by and large, we're seeing a lot of sentences 519 00:38:08.679 --> 00:38:15.000 between six months and about three to four years, which I think are just 520 00:38:15.239 --> 00:38:17.440 I mean, there is a difference between that kind of scenario, uh, 521 00:38:17.679 --> 00:38:23.800 compared to formulating an attent to sexually assault somebody or rape somebody. And I'm 522 00:38:23.840 --> 00:38:29.559 just afraid that what we're gonna see is, you know, mandatory minimums that 523 00:38:29.679 --> 00:38:32.280 send these young folks away for eight, ten, twelve years, regardless of 524 00:38:32.320 --> 00:38:37.360 the surrounding circumstances. That is my biggest fear with all of this. Well, 525 00:38:37.400 --> 00:38:42.159 I think what that could do, and Dave before you jump, and 526 00:38:42.199 --> 00:38:46.679 I think what that might do is allow for negotiations for a lesser charge. 527 00:38:47.400 --> 00:38:52.079 That could be something right. So instead of having complete guilty to a one 528 00:38:52.119 --> 00:38:55.760 twenty, maybe you could there's room to negotiate for because they know the sensing 529 00:38:55.760 --> 00:39:00.440 parameters are so, you know, off kilter with that particular or factual scenario. 530 00:39:00.880 --> 00:39:04.679 But if it goes to trial and you get all the way to verdict 531 00:39:04.719 --> 00:39:07.239 and and found guilty, yeah, that's I mean, that's that's rough. 532 00:39:07.760 --> 00:39:10.920 Absolutely. Yeah, that's kind of I think you're going to see a pot 533 00:39:10.960 --> 00:39:15.239 of these cases appealed. If I were a critel defense lawyer and if I 534 00:39:15.320 --> 00:39:20.159 thought that the sentence did not really fit the time or the accused or even 535 00:39:20.159 --> 00:39:23.639 the victim, I'm going to repeal it Um and then you end up with 536 00:39:24.239 --> 00:39:30.719 senior judge advocates at the quarter criminal appeals level looking at these factors. And 537 00:39:30.960 --> 00:39:35.519 if you take a look at the statute and what the committee is supposed to 538 00:39:35.559 --> 00:39:38.119 come up with, they have the ranges, they've got these what I call 539 00:39:38.199 --> 00:39:42.440 the ranges, or they've got these categories, but then they also are supposed 540 00:39:42.480 --> 00:39:45.880 to come up with specific criteria, and that list could be twelve or fifteen 541 00:39:45.920 --> 00:39:50.800 different factors, which ends up giving a lot of discretion to the military judges 542 00:39:51.599 --> 00:39:53.599 to either the support or downward, and I think that that's going to be 543 00:39:53.719 --> 00:39:58.880 right then for a sentence appeal you know, the argument is that under the 544 00:39:58.880 --> 00:40:02.159 facts of the case, the arguments that were made with the conviction was for 545 00:40:02.639 --> 00:40:07.239 the background of the accused and the victim, that the sentence is disproportionate to 546 00:40:07.280 --> 00:40:13.000 what it should have been. And were already even under the current system that 547 00:40:13.079 --> 00:40:17.039 a lot of cases are appealed on sentencing issues where the court of criminal feels 548 00:40:17.119 --> 00:40:21.880 gets involved in going back and trying to reinvent the realists of what an appropriate 549 00:40:21.880 --> 00:40:23.599 sense ought to be. So we see a lot of cases going back to 550 00:40:23.679 --> 00:40:29.840 the field or sentencing the hearings and I think that that's going to simply escalate 551 00:40:29.920 --> 00:40:32.440 under the new system. I think that's a I think that's a wonderful point 552 00:40:32.440 --> 00:40:37.320 that I had not thought of and I think you're right. Um, I 553 00:40:37.360 --> 00:40:38.840 think you're spot on with that. So, Dave, we're going to cover 554 00:40:38.920 --> 00:40:43.199 two more two more points with you. We're gonna talk about the new Article 555 00:40:43.239 --> 00:40:45.800 One four for sexual harassment and then I I'd love to kind of get your 556 00:40:45.840 --> 00:40:52.320 feel on unanimous verdicts. Um. So we know that there is going to 557 00:40:52.400 --> 00:40:59.039 be a new article one thirty four for sexual harassment, Um, and we 558 00:40:59.400 --> 00:41:02.440 know that was line into law. You know what, when you heard that 559 00:41:02.559 --> 00:41:06.280 and when you saw this was coming down, you know, what were your 560 00:41:06.320 --> 00:41:10.960 thoughts about that, especially under the circumstances that folks can be prosecuted under article 561 00:41:12.400 --> 00:41:15.639 two and ninety three right now for sexual harassment. What we're kind of initial 562 00:41:15.679 --> 00:41:22.360 thoughts and feelings about that. My initial thought was why? Why? Why 563 00:41:22.440 --> 00:41:24.639 did they feel it was important to identify this? And it was a really 564 00:41:24.679 --> 00:41:30.519 weird rather than establishing under a new community of article, which Congress could have 565 00:41:30.559 --> 00:41:35.360 done, they directed that the president put it under one thirty four, in 566 00:41:35.360 --> 00:41:38.239 the manner for courts martial, and then listed the elements of the offense. 567 00:41:38.280 --> 00:41:40.480 So when you take a look at the elements of the sense, there's a 568 00:41:40.599 --> 00:41:45.800 tremendous amount of wiggle room because it's under one of the four. You've got 569 00:41:45.880 --> 00:41:49.719 these final elements that need to be proved. They're just a good order and 570 00:41:49.760 --> 00:41:53.400 discipline and sea. But you see the word reasonable throughout. A reasonable person, 571 00:41:53.480 --> 00:41:58.679 reasonable person, and any lawyer knows that that's kind of wiggle room. 572 00:41:58.920 --> 00:42:04.119 I was the reporter for the federals of criminal procedure advisory committee for Seventeen years 573 00:42:04.719 --> 00:42:07.840 and I've listened to a lot of debates what ought to go into a rule 574 00:42:07.880 --> 00:42:09.960 of criminal procedure. So you have the defense counsel being represented, you have 575 00:42:10.079 --> 00:42:15.280 the Justice Department, you had judges, then you had a few academics. 576 00:42:15.960 --> 00:42:20.480 The judges were most concerned about having her hands tied and I can tell you 577 00:42:20.480 --> 00:42:24.800 that in more one case I or somebody else would suggest inserting the word reasonable 578 00:42:24.840 --> 00:42:28.639 and everybody took a sigh relief and said, Hey, we're great with that 579 00:42:29.360 --> 00:42:31.679 because the word reasonable, it gives a lot of leeway to the actors in 580 00:42:31.719 --> 00:42:36.440 the courtroom as to what the argument should be. So when I read this 581 00:42:36.880 --> 00:42:38.599 development, I see the word reasonable, I say there's a lot of wiggle 582 00:42:38.679 --> 00:42:42.840 room there. So I don't know that it was really necessary. I think 583 00:42:42.880 --> 00:42:46.559 there was a lot of pressure to Um to politically pressure to just come up 584 00:42:46.599 --> 00:42:51.159 with an offense. So it's there. It's effective, I guess immediately. 585 00:42:51.199 --> 00:42:53.679 It's been placed into themanning for courts months, so I guess this last spring. 586 00:42:53.800 --> 00:42:58.639 So I don't know if any cases are actually being prosecuted under or not. 587 00:42:59.360 --> 00:43:02.840 Well, does that impact article ninety three, Um, the cruelty mal 588 00:43:02.880 --> 00:43:07.280 treatment stuff? Can you still proceed on under that theory? Sure, we 589 00:43:07.360 --> 00:43:10.559 just had a trial on it. You know this week right Seawan and Dan 590 00:43:10.679 --> 00:43:15.079 Rodd at Fort Bragg defending a cruelty mal treatment. I do think there's gonna 591 00:43:15.079 --> 00:43:21.559 be some issues, potentially with preemption, depending on what the how the charge 592 00:43:21.639 --> 00:43:24.840 is drawn up. Um, you know, I do think that's an issue 593 00:43:24.840 --> 00:43:28.000 and I think that's something we're gonna have to take a close look at. 594 00:43:28.119 --> 00:43:31.639 They could, I mean theoretically, two could be under six D twenty. 595 00:43:31.639 --> 00:43:36.400 And we're talking about the army right article ninety three and now this one thirty 596 00:43:36.400 --> 00:43:39.199 four right now. There might be multiplicity issues, but they could. You 597 00:43:39.239 --> 00:43:44.719 know, theoretically, it probably charge all that. My my feeling is if 598 00:43:44.719 --> 00:43:47.800 you're going to charge sexual harassment, I don't think Article One thirty four then 599 00:43:47.840 --> 00:43:52.480 the new charge makes it any easier. I've never understood, you know, 600 00:43:52.719 --> 00:43:57.000 to me, charge under Article Ninety two. If you'RE gonna charge it and 601 00:43:57.079 --> 00:44:00.679 you think it's there, charge it under ninety article ninety two, because it's 602 00:44:00.800 --> 00:44:05.159 very clear, at least from my perspective, what sexual harassment is to find 603 00:44:05.159 --> 00:44:07.679 at in the rags. I think article on thirty four new article actually makes 604 00:44:07.679 --> 00:44:10.679 it a little more difficult for the prosecutors to get a conviction, which kind 605 00:44:10.679 --> 00:44:15.480 of made me laugh, because President Biden signed this into law thinking that this 606 00:44:15.559 --> 00:44:19.360 was some kind of sweeping change, and even when we were interviewed. So 607 00:44:19.480 --> 00:44:22.159 just some background, Dave. We were interviewed by some news outlets, including 608 00:44:22.159 --> 00:44:25.039 CNN, about this and my comments were I don't think it's necessary and I 609 00:44:25.079 --> 00:44:29.800 don't think it makes it any easier to get a conviction on sexual harassment. 610 00:44:29.800 --> 00:44:31.480 I don't know where your thoughts on on that, Dave, but to me 611 00:44:31.559 --> 00:44:37.199 it almost compliments matters. Yeah, I think it probably does. That goes 612 00:44:37.239 --> 00:44:39.880 back to my original concern about if Congress isn't careful, they're going to make 613 00:44:39.880 --> 00:44:43.840 a real mess of this. You know they're well intended, I have no 614 00:44:43.960 --> 00:44:47.039 doubt Um, and I guess what I had to do is interject this and 615 00:44:47.039 --> 00:44:52.880 what I talked to audiences about these changes. I really try to be as 616 00:44:52.920 --> 00:44:57.360 positive as I can. It's really easy for me, as somebody who's been 617 00:44:57.360 --> 00:45:00.840 around military justice for Vida a decade, to get sound like a grumpy old 618 00:45:00.840 --> 00:45:04.519 man, and I know that I remember when I was an active duty and 619 00:45:04.559 --> 00:45:07.679 we have that we're going through Congress. You talked to some of these old 620 00:45:07.760 --> 00:45:12.119 jags and they would just sit around drinking their coffee and grumbling about how the 621 00:45:12.119 --> 00:45:15.679 world was going to tell in a handpot, and so I've really tried hard 622 00:45:15.719 --> 00:45:20.800 to remain positive and I really do believe that, all of the challenges that 623 00:45:20.840 --> 00:45:24.039 we've identified in this podcast, that they're folks in the Pentagon who are bright 624 00:45:24.119 --> 00:45:28.039 and energetic and they're going to figure all this out and they're gonna try to 625 00:45:28.079 --> 00:45:30.719 avoid the entertained consequences. I really do believe that. I think there are 626 00:45:30.760 --> 00:45:34.480 going to be some challenges, I think they're going to be some problems down 627 00:45:34.519 --> 00:45:37.840 the road. This is the one example where I don't believe it was really 628 00:45:37.880 --> 00:45:43.840 necessary. What happened is you're gonna probably have some over charging taking place. 629 00:45:43.920 --> 00:45:47.880 As I'm quickly looking down the list to cover defenses. So the military type 630 00:45:47.920 --> 00:45:54.360 offenses of a wall, desertion, those are not covered offense. Right. 631 00:45:57.039 --> 00:46:00.360 You Fall under the traditional trial council. I don't we haven't used the word, 632 00:46:00.360 --> 00:46:04.880 but this is this is going to create a bifurcated system. So you've 633 00:46:04.880 --> 00:46:09.079 got a local prosecutor who is not beholden to the go seven in Washington making 634 00:46:09.119 --> 00:46:14.400 these decisions. And I've seen enough of these cases that are on other areas 635 00:46:14.440 --> 00:46:19.239 where they're probably going to charge under under two. Maybe there was an order 636 00:46:19.280 --> 00:46:25.960 given to see and assist. So you'll have and they'll go to trial. 637 00:46:27.000 --> 00:46:31.320 The Defense Council will make a motion to dismiss either for a multiplicity over charging 638 00:46:31.519 --> 00:46:36.880 or for preemption, and then the judge and the prosecutor and the defense counts 639 00:46:36.880 --> 00:46:42.440 are going to hash out what charges actually go to trial, because I think 640 00:46:42.559 --> 00:46:45.840 that from a trial council standpoint, I don't want to lose a case before 641 00:46:45.880 --> 00:46:49.079 it even gets started. You know, I don't want the judge going out 642 00:46:49.079 --> 00:46:53.880 the one four charge for some problem with the specification and then being dead in 643 00:46:53.880 --> 00:46:58.440 the water not have anything else to go to trial on. So it's not 644 00:46:58.519 --> 00:47:01.239 unusual to see that where you charge the one for the cour offense and then 645 00:47:01.280 --> 00:47:05.280 some other substance, e. fence, along with it. Right now, 646 00:47:05.400 --> 00:47:07.719 I think that's a great point. Um. All right, Dave, we're 647 00:47:07.800 --> 00:47:10.000 running a little little short on time, um, but we want to talk 648 00:47:10.039 --> 00:47:16.079 about unanimous verdicts Um and we'll make this one pretty succinct. You know where 649 00:47:16.119 --> 00:47:21.119 the appeals courts have come down now, the most recent being US v dial, 650 00:47:21.239 --> 00:47:25.880 Judge Brookhart coming out and saying no, unanimous verdicts five years from today? 651 00:47:27.039 --> 00:47:30.440 Dave, what is your opinion? Do we have unanimous verdicts or not? 652 00:47:31.199 --> 00:47:36.079 I think we will. I think that in Congress people will argue that, 653 00:47:36.119 --> 00:47:38.119 you know, we need to be like the federal or the state systems, 654 00:47:38.639 --> 00:47:42.840 and I think that's probably coming. I think it's going to make it 655 00:47:43.000 --> 00:47:46.440 easier for defense counsel in future to get acquittled. I've heard the arguments. 656 00:47:46.440 --> 00:47:50.679 I've made the arguments. You know, the military as Unan I think it's 657 00:47:50.760 --> 00:47:53.159 less unique now than it was forty or fifty years ago. But yeah, 658 00:47:53.159 --> 00:47:58.360 I see unanimous verdicts coming down the pike. I agree. I Know Mickey 659 00:47:58.400 --> 00:48:02.719 does. They're gonna have a hard time justifying how different we are, considering 660 00:48:02.719 --> 00:48:07.320 every step they're taking right now is to make us more like the civilian system. 661 00:48:07.360 --> 00:48:09.800 That being said, I see Matt getting very anty over here. I 662 00:48:09.840 --> 00:48:13.760 know we want, we'd like to finish up with a fun topic, Dave. 663 00:48:14.119 --> 00:48:16.039 So, Matt, before you jump out of your chair, uh, 664 00:48:16.119 --> 00:48:20.159 go ahead and let's let's have a laugh or two and finish up on a 665 00:48:20.239 --> 00:48:22.400 light hearted note. I do get anty, I do get it, but 666 00:48:22.480 --> 00:48:25.360 let me just say that was a phenomenal discussion. Dave. Thank you very 667 00:48:25.440 --> 00:48:31.119 much. Mickey and Rob said you would be great on the podcast and and 668 00:48:31.199 --> 00:48:36.519 you delivered. You always know when somebody knows the topic well. There's no 669 00:48:36.679 --> 00:48:42.000 wasted word in their analysis. There's no ums, there's no pauses. You 670 00:48:42.039 --> 00:48:45.800 clearly know this stuff exceptionally well. You can see both sides of it. 671 00:48:45.519 --> 00:48:49.920 You can absorb all this information and dissect it and I think it's gonna be. 672 00:48:50.519 --> 00:48:52.320 I think it's gonna be our best podcast episode up to this point. 673 00:48:52.400 --> 00:48:58.079 So thank you again very much for taking the time to talk with us today. 674 00:48:58.119 --> 00:49:00.039 Our are we're gonna close this. We talked to the beginning of the 675 00:49:00.039 --> 00:49:06.880 show about favorite military movies. Now we're gonna give our favorite characters from a 676 00:49:06.920 --> 00:49:09.719 military movie. Doesn't have to be from the one that appeared on your earlier 677 00:49:09.800 --> 00:49:14.039 list, and you can give up to three, but you only have to 678 00:49:14.039 --> 00:49:17.159 give one. And Uh and I'm gonna Start with Mickey this time, since 679 00:49:17.199 --> 00:49:20.920 I think we put him on the back burner last time. So Mickey, 680 00:49:21.039 --> 00:49:27.639 your top one or three military movie characters of all times? Sure, I'm 681 00:49:27.639 --> 00:49:30.639 happy to do it and I agree with anything Matt said. Dave, thank 682 00:49:30.639 --> 00:49:36.079 you very much for coming on all right. My first one is Robert Duval 683 00:49:36.280 --> 00:49:40.280 as Lieutenant Colonel Kilgore in apocalypse now. Um, I thought that guy uh 684 00:49:40.719 --> 00:49:45.000 as crazy as that film was. Um, he made it even crazier and 685 00:49:45.440 --> 00:49:49.639 not actually that unrealistic, I'm sure, for battalion commanders in those days. 686 00:49:50.280 --> 00:49:55.280 My second one was master chief John James, your Guyle, from UH G 687 00:49:55.519 --> 00:49:59.679 I Jane. Believe it or not, Vigo Mortenson played him. I love 688 00:49:59.760 --> 00:50:01.880 that's right. He was great in that. He was great in that. 689 00:50:01.880 --> 00:50:07.440 That's a great pick. And then my last one is Blaine, played by 690 00:50:07.599 --> 00:50:13.239 Jesse Ventura, in Predator. He gets his heart blown out by the Predator 691 00:50:13.280 --> 00:50:17.920 and that. So they're like Alabama ticks. Three are those are three good 692 00:50:17.960 --> 00:50:22.599 ones. Um, Robert Capa Villa, how about you? So I kind 693 00:50:22.599 --> 00:50:25.880 of gave this away earlier. Jeff Daniels playing Colonel Chamberlain and Gettysburg, I 694 00:50:25.880 --> 00:50:30.360 thought was a phenomenal, phenomenal role for him. And, like I said, 695 00:50:30.400 --> 00:50:34.000 when he gives the order to fix bayonets and maybe the most important ever, 696 00:50:34.159 --> 00:50:37.400 maybe maybe the most important order ever given by a commander in the field 697 00:50:38.000 --> 00:50:43.599 during a battle, because if the flank falls at Gettysburg, that maybe a 698 00:50:43.639 --> 00:50:45.920 certain rewriting of history. Uh, and I still get chills from when I 699 00:50:45.960 --> 00:50:50.039 see that role or when I when I hear him talking about that. Tom 700 00:50:50.079 --> 00:50:52.960 Hanks from a League of their own. Um, you could argue that's not 701 00:50:53.119 --> 00:50:55.800 a war movie, but it takes place during World War Two and it's got 702 00:50:55.840 --> 00:51:00.840 a lot of impacts and and he should have gotten in an academy award for 703 00:51:00.880 --> 00:51:05.280 that when he argues with the umpire in that movie. That is one of 704 00:51:05.280 --> 00:51:08.440 the best scenes that he's ever done. And then, third I've got Sean 705 00:51:08.519 --> 00:51:13.599 Penn's character from a thin red line. I never served an infantry unit like 706 00:51:13.679 --> 00:51:17.000 Mickey, but growing up after watching that, to me that that is he 707 00:51:17.079 --> 00:51:22.840 epitomized what an infantry soldier in combat would be like. Excellent, phenomenal list. 708 00:51:23.159 --> 00:51:29.639 Um, Dave Schleet er, your list of top military movie characters of 709 00:51:29.639 --> 00:51:32.599 all time. Sir, all right, Jack Nicholson and a few good men. 710 00:51:32.639 --> 00:51:38.280 You can't handle the yeah, yeah, French told me that and if 711 00:51:38.280 --> 00:51:42.719 you look at a couple of the scenes she squeares that a copy of one 712 00:51:42.760 --> 00:51:46.119 of my books is on the judges bench. I've never conformed that, colonel. 713 00:51:49.920 --> 00:51:52.800 Well, well, one of our listeners, one of our listeners will 714 00:51:52.880 --> 00:51:55.079 verify that. For sure. We get we get emails on those kinds of 715 00:51:55.079 --> 00:51:58.440 things all the time. Do you know what Dave? Do you know which 716 00:51:58.440 --> 00:52:04.360 book? No, I don't, because I've looked, I've I've paused it 717 00:52:04.480 --> 00:52:07.639 and that it's kind of fuzzy, but it looks like the coloring of one 718 00:52:07.679 --> 00:52:12.280 of the earlier editions that I haven't gone back to match it. Besides, 719 00:52:12.280 --> 00:52:15.039 I don't want to get a big head and that if somebody included it, 720 00:52:15.119 --> 00:52:20.679 that's great. John Connery and hunt for Red October. Yeah, I've seen 721 00:52:20.719 --> 00:52:23.639 that movie four or five times and I just love it. Um and then 722 00:52:23.639 --> 00:52:30.000 finally, Goldie Hawn and private Benjamin, where she stands to her M C 723 00:52:30.159 --> 00:52:32.800 o. You know where the condos were, the sailing boats, because she 724 00:52:34.079 --> 00:52:37.280 obviously signed up thinking the military was going to be one thing. It turned 725 00:52:37.320 --> 00:52:42.360 into something. That's a great that's a great selection there. I had not 726 00:52:42.440 --> 00:52:45.679 thought about Goldiehon I've I've seen that movie once. That's a that's an excellent 727 00:52:45.719 --> 00:52:49.719 selection. I thought that movie would make somebody's list, but but it did 728 00:52:49.760 --> 00:52:53.320 not. So here are my three. My first as Vasquez from aliens. 729 00:52:53.599 --> 00:53:00.679 She's man. That's right. Let's rock. They say no live AMM oh, 730 00:53:00.760 --> 00:53:02.880 and she's like stuffing it in all our and all our gear. But 731 00:53:04.119 --> 00:53:07.760 Um, my second is, and I'm sure I'll mispronounce his last name because 732 00:53:07.760 --> 00:53:12.440 I don't know, but Eric Bonna and black hawkown. He was very good. 733 00:53:12.639 --> 00:53:15.159 Um, you know that character. I think the real guy ended up 734 00:53:15.199 --> 00:53:17.639 getting court martialed or ended up getting in some very, very serious trouble. 735 00:53:17.679 --> 00:53:22.320 But was he a ranger in that movie? He's he's a Delta Force Guy. 736 00:53:22.440 --> 00:53:24.719 Yeah, but but that was sweet. And then my third, and 737 00:53:24.719 --> 00:53:30.679 I can't believe this didn't make anybody else's but Hartman from from a full metal 738 00:53:30.000 --> 00:53:35.760 jacket right the drill instructor, the drill sergeant. I think that for me 739 00:53:36.039 --> 00:53:38.079 I just thought that was a predictable I thought everything. Sorry, man, 740 00:53:38.199 --> 00:53:40.800 yeah, I know well that I've done the civilian guy here, so of 741 00:53:40.880 --> 00:53:47.280 course I thought that was great. You guys probably were. I got an 742 00:53:47.280 --> 00:53:50.760 idea for you, gentlemen. You've got a lot of interest on this. 743 00:53:50.800 --> 00:53:54.360 Why don't you do an entire podcast on the role of movies and framing the 744 00:53:54.400 --> 00:54:01.159 public perception of military military just that's the case, is doing what Terry Justice 745 00:54:01.239 --> 00:54:05.400 can mute me. You're good man, all that good stuff. That is 746 00:54:05.400 --> 00:54:07.920 a great idea and Matt is very happy to hear that because he's been pushing 747 00:54:07.920 --> 00:54:13.280 something like that on us a while. And now that the man has spoken, 748 00:54:13.320 --> 00:54:16.360 I think we have lighthearted, lighthearted episode. Well, UM, well, 749 00:54:16.400 --> 00:54:20.840 this one went a little bit long, but it was a phenomenal episode. 750 00:54:21.000 --> 00:54:23.199 We thank you again, Dave, for all of your time and wisdom 751 00:54:23.239 --> 00:54:25.599 that you put into this. I'd love to have you back. I Know 752 00:54:25.639 --> 00:54:29.239 Mickey and Rob would love to have you back at some point in the future 753 00:54:29.280 --> 00:54:34.159 as well, so hopefully we can arrange that before we end. Dave, 754 00:54:34.639 --> 00:54:37.199 it was your mom to do with you all today. Thank you very much 755 00:54:37.239 --> 00:54:39.760 for the opportunity to be with you. No, thank thank you for coming 756 00:54:39.800 --> 00:54:44.199 on and, and this is gonna Sound Cheesy, but I'd love to have 757 00:54:44.280 --> 00:54:46.559 a signed I have all your books. I'd love to have a signed copy 758 00:54:46.599 --> 00:54:51.760 of it. If I mail it to you, you think all right, 759 00:54:51.800 --> 00:54:55.440 outstanding you just made. You just made Mickey's Day. And one last thing 760 00:54:55.440 --> 00:55:00.280 before we close out, one last thing. I never do you this, 761 00:55:00.480 --> 00:55:04.880 but I promised a CO Council of mine in the military who did a phenomenal 762 00:55:05.000 --> 00:55:07.280 job on a pretty high profile case I have that I would give him a 763 00:55:07.320 --> 00:55:12.039 shout out with Dave on the line. So I want to shout out to 764 00:55:12.199 --> 00:55:16.320 Nick Aleotta. Bright Guy, emery law Grad, US Air Force Judge Advocate, 765 00:55:16.519 --> 00:55:20.079 has a tremendous future ahead of him. Nick, thank you so much 766 00:55:20.119 --> 00:55:22.480 for your hard work. There you go, there you go. Good Job 767 00:55:22.559 --> 00:55:28.519 Nick well. Thank you, gentlemen. So signing off from the military justice 768 00:55:28.519 --> 00:55:31.760 today podcast. Another great episode. We will see you all next time. 769 00:55:32.000 --> 00:55:37.760 Thank you, be safe. Thanks for listening to the military justice today podcast 770 00:55:37.960 --> 00:55:43.400 with your host, Robert Capa Villa and Mickey Williams. This show was made 771 00:55:43.400 --> 00:55:46.280 possible in part by the law firm of Capa Villa and Williams. For more 772 00:55:46.320 --> 00:55:54.800 information or to listen to more episodes, visit military justice today DOT com.